Here are my thoughts on the poker problem posed yesterday:

The answer here is a fold. Terrence (I actually prodded him to comment on this just so I had somebody who was clearly in my corner):

Fold. Every time. Kings just aren't going to hold up against three other players, and that's assuming they're good right now, which they almost can't be. I know people do stupid things online, and obviously at least two people in this hand exemplify this. But raise, reraise, push push push seems to mean aces exist somewhere. Even the guy in front of you could have them, looking to just call and trap the cutoff. I can't ever see myself calling in this spot.

Kings are a weak hand in this position. Assume for a moment that you discount anybody having aces, and let's break this down mathematically with possible hands:

  • Let's say you're against 3 lower pocket pairs (which would probably be the most ideal realistic situation). The odds of you winning with KK against three lower pockets is 52.6%. Percentage-wise, the previous question could also be phrased: On the third hand of a SNG with relatively deep stacks, you raise with 55 and are faced against a reraise with AK. The person then flips the cards face-up and you have to decide whether to call. Do you do it?. Sure, in this case you have the ability to go up 4x, but elimination is elimination, and a chip lead this early in a tournament blinds so low is not necessarily going to improve your pcts to win the whole tourney.
  • If aces were to be discounted as a possible hand, the most realistic situation (and the one I thought I was in when I played this hand) was to be up against AK suited, a big pocket (QQ or JJ) and a drawing hand (mid-suited connectors). Small blind could easily have pushed with QQ/JJ, while cut-off calls with AK suited (which is an understandable move). Mid-position before me has the pot odds to call with suited connectors (he was a loose type, so I figured he was gambling), and that left me with the best hand pre-flop. However, in a situation with KK vs. AKs vs. QQ vs 76s, the odds of KK winning are only 37%.

Given that I've put in 10% of my stack (200 of 1700), and that blinds are still 15-30, I still have 50xBB, which means I've still got a deep stack to play the sng. If I lost this hand, I would have 200 chips (7xBB) which would put me in a bad position. Bert raises an interesting point: if you're left with 400 chips (a little more than 10xBB) and you KNOW there are no aces out there, it may be worth the gamble... (there's a relevant article about dealing with tournaments with a medium stack here which sorta addresses the reasons why i would fold.)

I ended up folding this hand with KK. I figured that small-blind has a smaller pocket, but I was unsure what the cut-off had. I would have put a coin flip on cut-off having AA (which means my odds to win the pot were ridiculously small.

As it turns out, the hands that played were: QQ (small blind), AhKh, 7d6d. The board ended up being 4c7hJd8h8c.

An even MORE interesting question is: Would you fold aces in the exact same position?

Currently listening to: Radiohead - Paranoid Android
Posted by roy on August 30, 2006 at 02:15 AM in Poker | 12 Comments

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Comment posted on September 2nd, 2006 at 07:20 AM
Just made it back to PS for one SNG while I'm waiting for my Hold 'Em transfer back to Neteller... this is kind of ironic:

PokerStars Game #6141116584: Tournament #31125975, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/09/02 - 10:14:33 (ET)
Table '31125975 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: goose58 (1570 in chips)
Seat 2: baldaussie (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: ezmuny321 (1440 in chips)
Seat 4: Phatcrndwg (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: cisco z (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: FTMLS (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: NeverLast (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: måka (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: LeKurde (1500 in chips)
ezmuny321: posts small blind 10
Phatcrndwg: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Phatcrndwg [Ad Ah]
cisco z: calls 20
FTMLS: calls 20
NeverLast: folds
måka: folds
LeKurde: calls 20
goose58: calls 20
baldaussie: calls 20
ezmuny321: calls 10
Phatcrndwg: raises 220 to 240
cisco z: calls 220
FTMLS: folds
LeKurde: folds
goose58: folds
baldaussie: folds
ezmuny321: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kc Jh 9s]
Phatcrndwg: bets 580
cisco z: raises 680 to 1260 and is all-in
Phatcrndwg: calls 680 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Kc Jh 9s] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [Kc Jh 9s Qh] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Phatcrndwg: shows [Ad Ah] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
cisco z: shows [9h Kh] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Phatcrndwg collected 3100 from pot



Stupid ass donk.
Comment posted on August 31st, 2006 at 08:42 AM
thinking about this situation really made me miss poker. haven't played in a few months time...are you by any chance going to SPT this year? i'm gonna try to make it out there every once in awhile.
Comment posted on August 31st, 2006 at 11:46 PM
i hear that game sucks now. there's another game i play in weekly which is a weaker game, but it's a lot of fun (really really cool people). want me to try to get you a seat? (its usually around 830 or so wednesday)
Comment posted on September 1st, 2006 at 07:34 AM
that would be very kind of you. i'd appreciate it.
Comment posted on August 30th, 2006 at 09:28 PM
Regardless of what type of tournament this was, I wouldn't fold aces in this spot (except for the extremely rare satellite situation in which only one other big stack can bust you and the shortstacks are about to go out). Your hand is most assuredly good, and the math can't be ignored. If you're about 50% to quadruple up, you have to take it. I don't understand the argument about waiting so that you can outplay everyone. This IS outplaying them, calling with the correct odds and taking advantage of their incorrect all-ins. You'd have to really be in a tournament against the worst, most passive players in the world to be able to guarantee victory, thereby allowing you to fold this to eliminate your risk. If you get a 4X stack so early, you can really dictate play. Caaaaaaaaaaall.
Comment posted on August 31st, 2006 at 01:16 AM
i wouldn't be able to fold aces there either, but i think it's a good thought exercise.

my issue isn't so much with the fact that you're risking half your stack to quadruple - my issue is 48% of the time, you will bust out of the tournament on the third hand. if this was a cash game, i'd have no issues with calling here, but in a tournament setting with deep stacks, risking to lose 48% of the time seems to be a risky play. i'm also taking into account the fact that quadrupling up on the first level really doesn't mean much in a tournament setting.
Comment posted on August 30th, 2006 at 06:22 PM
I don't think I'm folding aces under any circumstances in any position in any kind of tournament. If I lose, so be it. I don't think it's ever correct to fold AA preflop, despite the fact you may be against multiple opponents with non matching cards that may put you a smidgeon beyond 50% win pct. Like Bert said in the other post, you play to win, and if I had a 45-50% chance of quadrupling up, I would have faith in my skills to run with that early chip lead and do damage.
Comment posted on August 31st, 2006 at 01:16 AM
but you don't have faith in finding better ways to build a chip stack more safely? (by the way, i'd probably never fold aces in that position either)
Comment posted on August 30th, 2006 at 01:41 PM
then again.. you play not to lose =)
Comment posted on August 30th, 2006 at 02:25 PM
and to win :P
Comment posted on August 30th, 2006 at 01:40 PM
i wouldn't fold k's or a's in that situation.. why? because you said it was a sit and go.

there's a certain level of chip protection. when you have this opportunity to get this far ahead.. i agree.. odd's aren't good you hold.. but i'll take those odds to get ahead.

in a BIG tournament.. I'd still consider calling, but chances are i'd fold.

being that it was a SNG.. i call any day.
Comment posted on August 30th, 2006 at 02:25 PM
i would say because it IS a SNG, you have to fold. you'll play a less number of hands in a SNG, which means there will be greater variation in hand percentages.

granted, if you win you have about 40% of the chips at the table, but how much does an early chip lead matter in a SNG? the other players will turtle with low blinds and then you'll end up with an all-in fest towards the end of the game.

keep the pots plenty but small, that's the way i go ;)