I don't ask for comments in my entries cause they're usually crap, but I do need some guidance on this matter.

Tabulas has gotten to a point where there are some "philosophical" questions need to be answered in regards to censorship.

This problem was brought up through a friend who's 14 year old brother found a Tabulas journal which was offensive. In the context of this post, I'm going to reveal the URLs.

*WARNING* THE FOLLOWING IMAGES CONTAINS PARTS OF THE FEMALE ANATOMY WHICH WILL BE OFFENSIVE (Image 1 Image 2) *WARNING*

ARGUMENT #1: TABULAS MUST PROTECT THE MINORS WHO USE THE SITE BY CENSORING SUCH IMAGES.

There is no argument that the first image is outright offensive. No one disputes this. However, do I have the right to go into that person's journal and delete that image?

If the only problem was minors being exposed to pornographic images, the answer is simple: Simply state a rule saying, "No pornographic images on Tabulas." Problem solved.

However ...

PROBLEM #1: ENFORCING CENSORSHIP RULES REQUIRES THE CREATION OF A TABULAS "POLICING" FORCE

In order to enforce the rules of Tabulas, you would have to set-up a policing force. Obviously it would be impossible to do pre-emptive screening of images to Tabulas, so each issue would have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis based on complaints. However, what judgements do you use to determine whether an image is offensive? Some would find the second image linked above as enough to get it banned, but others might find it ok.

In any case, you would have to use the judgements of the policing force. But what restrictions do the policing force have? They will potentially have the option to edit/delete images from your Tabulas at will. Do you really feel comfortable doing this? Who polices the policing force?

Furthermore, where do you draw the line? What if an image posted is made friends-only? And what if no one in the friends list is a minor ... but one still finds an image offensive? Do you remove that image?

PROBLEM #2: WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE ON WHAT TO CENSOR? (ALSO KNOWN AS THE "SLIPPERY SLOPE" ARGUMENT)

So today we decide that pornographic images will be reviewed by the Abuse Team. What if tomorrow someone finds a post that is anti-Semitic in nature? Is that protected under free speech, or do we make our TOS inclusive to protect against racial slurs?

Then what if tomorrow someone finds posts that are not offensive to groups of people, but to an individual? Say ex-boyfriend John starts posting sex stories about his ex-girlfriend Jane. Do we empower the Abuse Team to handle (petty) disputes between members?

Simply put, where do you draw the line between what you censor and what you don't? And once you start indicating you're willing to censor material, how do you tell people that you're not willing to settle disputes between members? Personal attacks can fall under the umbrella of "hateful speech."

What criteria do you use to censor the material? Obviously pornographic images are harmful to minors, but what if someone's Tabulas is geared towards older audiences and includes pornography? Do we have a right to censor stuff like that?

My take on the whole issue is akin to Pandora's Box: Don't go there. Once I indicate I want to start censorship of material, I open myself up to all sorts of censorship requests from all sorts of members. And that is something I don't want to do.

Tabulas is *not* a site that controls the flow of information; the very creation of features like RSS and (soon-to-be) Tabulets is meant to publish the information as many formats as possible so that it will never be lost (unless you choose it so).

PROBLEM #3: DO WEBSITES HAVE THE RIGHT TO CENSOR MATERIAL?

From a legal standpoint, the answer is an absolute yes. You do not have free-speech rights on private websites. Most websites are geared towards specific purposes (whether it be game reviews or a fansite for some hot celebrity.); these do not benefit from no-censorship mentalities.

However, journaling sites are quite different. There's an assumed inherent social contract. I *could* start reading everyone's private journals using some sort of superadmin backdoor. I *could* publish everyone's e-mail on the web and let spamming bots grab them. However, as long as that bond of trust isn't violated, you continue to write private entries.

But the point is, I don't. And that gives you guys a peace of mind that whatever is posted on Tabulas is respected. If you choose a friends-only mode, it comes out like that. I don't go around adding myself as your friend just to read your posts.

The "bigger picture" includes your belief that what you write will be respected, regardless of its hateful nature or whatnot. What if you knew every post you wrote or every image you posted could be reviewed by someone and put offline without your consent? It would be damaging to the way you journal.

Certainly a lot of you don't journal that seriously so these aren't issues, but there are plenty of people who write journals on sensitive topics that would worry plenty about any type of censorship.

At this point, I am too reluctant to start a policing force. However, my mind is open to change if I can hear something that might change my mind.

Please give me your comments on this topic ...
Posted by roy on January 16, 2004 at 06:27 PM in Personal | 21 Comments

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Comment posted on January 19th, 2004 at 09:12 PM
what it boils down to is, who's gonna take the heat? it sure as hell isn't gonna be the people that post the pictures, with their "it's my g'damn right!" drivel. it's gonna be the admin of the whole shebang, who just happens to be you. all "rights" and crap aside, if you want tabulas to keep running as successfully as it has been, and [more importantly] if you want to keep your own ass from getting fried, there needs to be some sort of authority figure on this subject.

as for where to draw the line, think of it this way: if people want to be "protected," there is no way they're gonna get that protection without giving up a bit of their priveleges and rights. as so many others have commented, you really can't have it both ways. if they don't like it, then they can go screw themselves.

my stand on this [not that one person's opinion has much power] is that if people want to be protected, and more importantly, if you want to keep people from crawling up your rectum, then you need to take a billy club and start bashin. if they complain, bash em harder. it's your site, it's your world, and damn it all to hell if you're gonna burn for it.
Comment posted on January 18th, 2004 at 01:20 PM
As an addendum to what I just posted: if it was anyone else Roy, I'd say they should look to other journaling sites and see what their rules are. However, you strike me as being a pretty open-minded, easy-going, intelligent person, who is willing to allow a fair bit of leeway. So I feel comfortable in saying that the decision whether something should be allowed on your site or not should be up to you. It's not as if you're going to check out everyone's site and start deleting like mad. However, as this issue was brought to your attention, you should use your own good judgement and decide it the pics should remain. I think your judgement can be trusted.
Comment posted on January 18th, 2004 at 01:10 PM
Roy, sweetie, you're overthinking things. It boils down to this: Tabulas is YOUR project. If you think the pics are offensive, then you remove them. If the person who posted them gets angry, they are free to go to another site.

The way to enforce it: if you don't know about the pics, and no one brings them to your attention, then they stay.

If, however, someone does complain, then you check it out, determine if you feel it's inappropriate, and if so remove it.

Post a notice, up where all can see it that says "The owner of Tabulas reserves the right to remove anything that he deems to be pornographic or inappropriate for his site." Anyone who doesn't like the rule can leave. You have the right to censor what you feel is inappropriate for YOUR site. That is your right, your freedom, and if others don't appreciate that, they have the freedom to find another site.

I would also post a notice that says "Since we all appreciate the freedom to express ourselves please keep in mind that there may be material on this site that is offensive to some. Discretion is advised."

Personally the first pic was offensive and totally inappropriate for a public journaling site. If the idiot who posted them wants that stuff to be seen by others, he/she should pay out their hard-earned cash, buy a domain, and set up their own site. Then they could post all the trashy pics they wanted.

On my sites I have posted that I reserve the right to edit anything submitted. It's my site, it's my right. :-D

rozeghost (guest)

Comment posted on January 18th, 2004 at 11:00 AM
Since the server is in the US, it should observe US law: No one under 13 should post and no one under 18 should see offensive material.

Like many other commenters, it comes down to the fact that it is your servers. If you can stand the possible and eventual heat from parents and individuals who disagree with the pictures, then leave it up there. If you don't want the extra time and hassle, then put a visible statement somewhere saying that "Tabulas is not responsible for the content of its users."

But there should def. be some backup for users that have a site for the purpose of posting blatently illegal doings.

One or two pics ~ depeds on the content and cicumstances.

One or two journals just for that purpose ~ action needs to be taken.

*~*~*~

But its your site. Paid or free members should and can post with "free speech" in mind, but would you want something like the KKK or Black Panthers to have a journal? I don't think the user in question has done something terrible, they've just done something stupid and quite possibly offensive. But the intensions were of a more innocent nature than that what was previously stated on having.

Think of it as a sort of spam. If people spam places to get more traffic, and the traffic happens to lead to one of your servers, depending on how bad the spam was and the amt. would determine your actions as far as the traffic-infested site.
Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 10:01 PM
I've started my own site rather than journalling on any of the regular journalling sites anymore but I thought I'd pipe up as a regular internet user. I have a serious problem with censorship (unless it's self-censoring). Would it be hard to implement something like Yahoo profiles uses which would let a user state their age and state if their journal is "adult-oriented", then underage people couldn't see those journals? Just a thought. Regardless of how I feel personally, I support your right to do with your site as you please. :)
Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 02:58 PM
i didnt bother reading the other comments, so i'm not sure if this has been said yet...
but you could require in the TOS that every user is over 18, so that they wouldn't be adversly affected by such things that are sensitive. obviously, minors would still register, but it would be a warning that profane material was enclosed within.

Anonymous (guest)

Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 01:23 PM
I don't use tabulas, and don't plan to, for reasons that I have too many journaling sites as is.

You need to cover your ass. Whether you're afraid of legal consequences or not, a parent of a user of tabuluas (who is a minor), may see pornographic material and say YOU as the site admin is responsible. There needs to be terms that state explicitly any material found on user sites are the legal responsibility of the user.

That being said, the freedom of free speech is NOT what it reads as. It is for the protection of the people from the /government/ not from other people. People spout off 'free speech free speech' bullshit, but to paraphrase one of my favourite movies: "You use that word, but I do not think you know what it means."

In the same respect, people who use tabulas have no right to free speech other than the guidelines -you- as the owner provide them.

As someone said, words are harder to censor, and is not your job to. Livejournal has an abuse team that works rather well, and is not up to the discretion of one member solely. If someone is spouting hate material, or using tabulas, God forbid, to post about criminal actions s/he may do or have done, than it becomes your responsibilty because you own the site, not them.

Basically, cover your ass or you'll regret it in the future. Even if the abuse team can't do much, having one, and having it stated clearly in any acceptable use policy, will help you in the future.

MacDaddyTatsu (guest)

Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 12:14 PM
Ill post a link to THEIR interpreted materials page later. I have to eat Im starving!

MacDaddyTatsu (guest)

Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 12:02 PM
OK. Let me clearify my point, Royo...you dont really have a choice in the matter. Indecent materials can get the FCC on your ass in a hurry spouting what IS and IS NOT appropriate for minors to view. You will be able to coast for a while but you WILL eventually have to have some measures in place to deal with this or their could be reprecussions and Im not talking about angered parents.
Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 11:27 AM
This is a really tough problem. I think that your responsibility under the law should determine what you do and I don't know what that responsibility is.

I think that the first photo is in poor taste bordering on stupid. The second photo doesn't offend me at all nor does it disturb me. Frankly, unless you have some legal responsibilities in this matter, I would simply caution the person about the propriety of posting the first photo.

In so far as hate postings go, the problem for me is the famous saying "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Where does freedom of speech end?

I think that you have the ultimate say in that matter on your sites, but what you do should reflect your personal belief and your legal responsibilities (I have no idea what those are, by the way) and not those people who may be offended by someone's post be it photos or words.
I would be very disturbed by hate postings. I haven't seen any, but then again, I don't go looking for them.

I don't have any problem with setting limits for photos that can be posted. You have to decide on what those limits should be, though, and be specific. What you should be very interested in is avoiding any legal entanglements.

You will always have some people who are offended by something posted to tabulas. Standards of what is acceptable vary throughout the world, let alone the U.S. I think that you have to consider what you are responsible for under the law.

There is also the question of who's law. What state's law or country's law must you follow. Could someone in a conservative Muslim country where the photos in question would be highly offensive if not downright illegal, sue you? Could someone in another state sue you because they consider these photos pornographic? I don't think either is, but that's just my opinion.

As I said, this is a tough problem. What do other journaling sites do?

I can see banning any sexually explicit photos although I'm not 100% sure that they cause any harm, at least to consenting adults. On the other hand, there is no law saying that your site has to host them. You can ban them.

It's too bad that some people lack common sense and consideration. You have put a great deal of time and effort into tabulas and tokki and people should have some respect for that. They (we) are your guests, even those of us who pay. You are the host.

On the other hand, perhaps the person who posted those photos did not intend them to be offensive and didn't find them so. This really could be the case, you know. What then?

I don't really think that the two photos in question are much of an issue, but someone could post other photos which really are an issue. I think that you need to lay down some guidelines for users. Someone violating those guidelines should receive a warning for the first offense. A second offense would merit termination of their account.

With all of the technical problems involved in running your sites, I hardly think you deserve these problems.

Bert (guest)

Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 12:56 AM
Roy. As a site administrator it is your job to decide how much creative control you give you your user base.

answers to your questions are a matter of personal opinions.

1.) A policing force would work, but in turn who polices the police. Who would police them? My personal belief is that policing doesn't work. Sure it may for awhile, but what happens when someone draws the line in a gray area. Right and Wrong is not as clear as black and white. In current society, freedom of pretty much everything reigns. My personal belief is that the best way of controlling content (to some extent) is through community shame. The tabulas community has to and needs to be outraged that such morale values are compromiseed. Unfortunately, I don't think we live in such a day and time.

Solution 1a. This is your site. There is a site agreement to using it. that user broke your agreement, and the second best way (in my opinion) is to delete the account. and put a big posting as to why (it violated the account). If/when you see users violating your agreement, you are free to delete. Yeah.. I think that's extreme, and probably unneccesary. But it's better to nip it in the butt now.

I still think it's best to encourage community self-policing. But in my experience this is too idealistic and probably doesn't solve anything. (I don't pretend to be altruistic. I blog for my own personal benefit and I'll be damned if someone is reading or not.)

2.) Should this be a fight you choose to fight, You need to decide where that line is drawn. You need to also decide how much it bends (I suggest that there is no bending.)

again, this is my personal opinion. A. Porn is a no no. No private parts. Period. censoring speech, i suggest against. People are responsible for what they write about. Not you. Just leave the line at multimedia. As long as clothing covers the private regions, it's ok. Something to that effect. Writing, is impossible to draw the line at, and there is no reason that you would be held accountable for someone else's blog. Their speech is not your responsibility. If someone is outraged/humiliated/etc by someone elses blog, then they should not read it. It's not your responsibility to play judge judy for them. Also. Make sure people know you will receive comments, but just because they demand a feature doesn't mean they deserve it. This site is FREE. If they were paying, then it's a different story. But in the end it comes to this. If a user is not a minor, they know damn well what they are doing. they are responsible for their own actions. If that user should be a minor, it is their parent's responsibility. I don't care if they are 16, or how mature they are. No parent can hold you accountable for "properly educating" their children except themselves. This is not your fight, nor should you be involved.

My suggestion would be to leave censorship to a strict definition of pornography. And leave the site as a "delete as soon as it is seen." (basically when/if someone reports it). Sorry this is definitely the "slippery slope"

3.) You're right. It's your site and you can do whatever you want with it (including censorship). Realistically, it depends on what your plan for the site is. Do you want it to rival true bloggings? or is it rather a plan to see how far you can take it? Or something else? I agree... Most people probably do not take blogging seriously (i know I sometimes don't). Sensitive issues are broached. But also realize that those who do take blogging seriously should more or less have their own site to accommodate them. That is complete freedom and also not your target customer. (then again, customers pay..., but that's an entirely different issue).

Anyway roy. GL to ya on these. They aren't easy choices, but the one thing you do need to do is once you make your choice, you need to firmly adhere to it. Half-assing it will only cause more headache.
Comment posted on January 17th, 2004 at 10:59 PM
You should get a Tabulas Bert.
Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 11:09 PM
although this is a burden and another responsibility on your shoulders, it shows how much tabulas has grown. =) any successful business or service has to face an amount of 'legal' issues.

your post made me curious enough to read the extremely long and boring "terms of service" included on livejournal's registration page. this made me realize one aspect that you didn't mention in your point. you need to protect yourself. most companies, if not all, have these TOS to protect themselves and not because they are saints wanting to protect the minors and innocent.

in my personal opinion? i wouldn't allow adult images on a public tabulas journal but allow them on friends-only entries. which also reminds me...could there be a way to approve someone listing you as a friend? if adult images are free to be posted on a friends-only post, this seems appropriate. personally, i would not want anything to do with someone who posts these types of pictures, even my username on their journal.
Comment posted on January 19th, 2004 at 03:37 PM
Although the feature doens't prevent your posts from showing up in someone else's "friends" page, I've added some functionality to the friends page now that lets you filter out nasty posts out your own journal ...

http://www.tabulas.com/~tabulas/120962.html

:)
Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 11:42 PM
Yes, a lot of the TOS are to protect the companies from action; but legally it's ok to post pornography ... so I'm not too focused on the legal aspects of the problem at hand.

As for your second question, I am working on a filtered friends-of list that will let you disable or remove people that show up as friends-of.

MacDaddyTatsu (guest)

Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 08:13 PM
If you give me access to some sort of "all images" page and an upgrade to a paid account Ill do it for you for free, Roy. Ill look around and delete all the pornographic crap that gets laid down on you.

Im behind you whatever you do.
Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 11:43 PM
You're completey missing the point. It's not whether it's possible or whether someone would be willing to do it; the question is there a right for Tabulas to do that.

MacDaddyTatsu (guest)

Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 08:07 PM
By law you are only REQUIRED to state that such images exsist on your service and have an age based "DOB" statistic in your sign up that will audit such images. Then when a member posts material of a mature nature have that member check a box to mark it as such. That or require only adults to use the service.

Other than that your Scott free.

From a personal stand point, I could care less...

Racist (guest)

Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 08:02 PM
All I have to say is that I hate slant eyed fucking asians.......
Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 11:41 PM
PM5K, I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove, but it's really not funny.
Comment posted on January 16th, 2004 at 07:28 PM
You provide great arguments to your own problems royo. I certainly believe that the minors should be somehow not be able to easily access material that is not meant for them. I really don't know of the *best* way of doing this though. If you were going to go the way of "Purity Police", the safest way you could go about it, if it'll actually work, is get them to email the users and ask them if they could re-consider keeping their pictures up on the site. There are problems to this such as how would they go abouts with such week authority? A polite email can only go so far.

If you didn't want to go that way and you still wanted the tabulas users to be free to post material they like their friends to read/view, maybe you could set up the shared journals where passwords were required? Maybe the mod for the shared journal could send out their password to the members of the journal so that only the members could view the pics. I can't see any major problem here other then you having to code all that, which is still a pretty big problem in itself now that I think about it.

That's all I can think of royo, sorry.

And btw, that girl in the second picture is pretty hott.