To take a quick break from working, I decided to play a ring game on PokerStars. I bought in for the minimum at the $1/$2 NL table ($40) and started playing. Immediatly off the bat I recognized the fish and then avoided playing the rocks. Anyways, about 30 minutes in, I've gotten my stack up to a respectable $130 or so when the following hand comes up.

You poker aficionados, try to figure out what hand people had. I'll explain what happens, and then you can click the link to see what happened. (Note: This hand looks really weak-tight the way I played it, but the table image I was projecting was a weak-tight player... I'll explain more later.)

Roy is in late position. UTG has called BB. Roy calls the BB ($2). The button (new player) reraises minimum. Big blind folds, and UTG (a very solid player who plays pot odds) calls. Roy calls.

Flop comes down 982. (98 are suited spades). BB bets $4, Roy smooth-calls. Button raises to $12. BB and Roy both call. Turn comes an offsuit 3. UTG and Roy both check. Button reraises to $42, then UTG goes all-in for $200. Roy, agonizing on what to do, requests Time and uses his whole time bank before throwing away his hand. Button calls.

What did everyone have?

Roy had 22 which caught a set off the flop. UTG mucked his hand, but Roy is willing to bet his life he had JT spades the way he played that hand. Button has... AA. Roy would of tripled up to $420 instead of sitting around with $110. That was my new iPod! Damn!

Here was my reasoning for this hand:

The preflop play was pretty standard stuff. Nothing too fancy. Now, I had been on a pretty hot streak of cards (I must of doubled up at least twice in the last ten hands), and I was opening and stealing a lot of pots, so I definitely had a very aggressive outlook. However, I had played very weak-tight when I first got to the table (this works well if you look like a weaker player than you really are against solid players), so I was looking to play this hand kind of weak-tight.

Now, the way I saw it, UTG opening off that flop with that weak bet smelled of either a monster (a set) or he was drawing. A simple pair would of had to bet it more in early position against an aggressive player behind him to push him out. The small bet was almost asking to be called; building pot odds seemed to be his plan. My smooth-call was an acknowledgement that he might be drawing. I wanted to see a safe turn card before trying to extract value from this hand. What surprised me was the reraise from button. The button was a new player so I was unsure what he was doing here, but I managed to place him one one of two hands: either drawing spades or straight or overpairs. There was no way he reraised on the button with the minimum, asking to be called, with a 9 or an 8 in his hand. There was the slight possibility that he had the higher set, so I kept that in mind. When UTG smooth-called, I eliminated the possibility that he had the set, so I placed UTG on JT spades.

The turn comes a safe card, which was exactly what I was hoping for. UTG checks (a dead giveaway that he's drawing) and I check behind him. At this point, I have no idea what's going to happen and I want to extract value from this hand. I expect a raise of maybe $20 from the button given the pot odds and then a smoothcall from UTG ... then I would push the rest of my chips in. However, when button raises $42 (this is roughly the size of the pot!) and UTG goes all-in, my world goes in for a loop.

My worry is not particularly from the UTG all-in; I've placed him on a straight and flush draw (at best), so my worry is to be up against button. If button has overpair, which I am almost CERTAIN he has at this point, then I'm roughly a 66% favorite to win the pot going into the river. But here's the catch. I've invested only $16 in the pot. This is where my lack of experience in pot odds factors into a really bad decision by me. I decide that investing 9x what I've invested in the pot is a bad move, especially if my read is dead wrong, which I'm starting to question given the huge bet and the reraise all-in. In retrospect now, it was basically risking $110 to triple up 2/3 of the time... not a bad risk/reward ratio. Damn. If only I had called...

Oh well. But in retospect, everything is 20/20. When that huge bet and reraise sat in front of me, my low set seemed like a really weak hand to be making a move with. Even if my read was completely correct, I thought I was a bigger underdog than a favorite (but now I know I was a 66% favorite.. damn!

Edit: Talked to Terrence and we both decided I was a moron. Although I'm not as gung-ho about sets as he is (I've been busted tons of times with set vs. set in the all-in fests), I should of called here. I'm a moron.

Posted by roy on January 7, 2005 at 02:01 AM in Poker | 18 Comments

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Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 02:21 PM
"... JTs played this poorly..."

I'm not sure about that. Given the fact that he had roughly $200 in chips and the initial reraise off the flop was $12, I'm not sure you could justify pushing the rest in. Furthermore with a drawing hand, you want to keep in as many people as possible to build up the pot. I like his smooth-call here to build the pot. The push off the turn was understandable if he was making a semi-bluff at the pot (the reraise all-in was larger than the pot). Given the way this guys plays, I'm sure he justified it by saying that any overpairs would have to fold (would you risk AA in that spot for that much money against two players? I think the button was actually a moron... the more I think about it) and sets would call. But given the fact that I was a spineless moron last night, I had to fold to a large raise and another huge reraise all-in.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 01:32 PM
this is why i miss poker back at school.

a similar situation to this happened at my home game a couple days ago. 50 dollars in chips, 0.50/1.00 blinds, 6 of 7 players left, i was right behind the button with about 70 in chips. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, i call, button raises to 2, blinds fold, everyone else calls. i have pocket 4s.

flop falls KQ4 (K4 were suited, don't remember which suit). UTG raises 2, UTG+1 folds, i call, button raises 10 more, UTG calls, i call.

turn comes blank, UTG checks, i raise 15, button goes all-in for about 30 more and UTG follows. all our stacks are fairly equal, i have maybe 10 more than both. i call. they both flip over draws, one with A high, one with J high. and of course the river gives the right card, and i lose to imbeciles.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 03:42 PM
Godwin, these guys' names wouldn't happen to be Ryan and Big Red, would they? If not, invite them to Chapel Hill so they can meet each other and trade suck-out stories.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 10:44 PM
ryan does not make stupid moves such as these. he was playing in the game as well, but all he could do was shake his head. funny thing is i came all the way back to heads up, only to lose in a similar fashion again.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 11:07 PM
Um, the same Ryan who called an all-in with T9 suited knowing he was drawing "for a straight?"
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 02:28 PM
Ouch, that sucks. You were playing in a tourney, right? The ring game mentality made things much harder for me in this case :/
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 10:44 PM
what the heck is a ring game?
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 11:07 PM
Not the tourneys we do; ring games are just ones you play for money straight up.

PM5K (guest)

Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 12:33 PM
You gamble too damn much, seek help.....
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 01:41 PM
haha i missed you commenting in my post! what have you been up to lately?
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 09:59 AM
Kris, you're a big weak-tight fag. First of all, this isn't Omaha, so you very, very rarely encounter set versus set. I don't think you can conclude that someone had aces because of the minimum raise preflop, although that is a common play. Still, you had to figure someone for a big overpair given the betting, so that makes sense. I wasn't in this situation, so Roy knows best, but if I flop a set, and an innocuous-looking card hits the turn (no straights or flushes completed), it's time to push all the chips into the middle. Also keep in mind that this is a ring game, not a tournament, where the objective is to conserve chips. You can make a stronger case for folding here in a tournament setting, although it still wouldn't be easy to do. In a cash game, however, if you hit a set, you're putting all your money behind it 95% of the time. Unless you're a weak-tight fag.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 02:27 PM
I woke up today thinking about the hand. I feel better about the way I folded than I did last night. Given the pot-sized reraise by a new player (who I didn't have a great read on, but guess he had overpairs) and a huge reraise by a very solid player ... the best situation I could of asked for was exactly what happened (overpair vs. a busted draw vs. my set). However, the range I also placed people on included a higher set, which made me a huge underdog going into the river.

I'm not one to fold hands (i'm sure you know this), but the whole way it just unfolded, there had to be another set in play. I guess teh big issue for me was the new player; I was unsure whether he was solid or not (I guess the move with AA shows what a moron he was).

Gah.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 09:06 AM
no Roy, you're a bobbies, not a moron. If that makes you feel better
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 03:18 AM
I fear no bobbies!
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 03:23 AM
I hate you.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 03:16 AM
isn't it tough to play against virtual (albiet real-thinking humans) because you can't see reactions in their faces/get to know their personality?

i finally learned to play texas holdem and i now understand what you are talking about! (for the most part...)
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 03:22 AM
Yes, it definitely takes away from it. But reading players physically is somewhat overrated - I think betting patterns are MUCH more important than finding physical tells. You can pick up on their poker personality by watching how they play their hands; see how they exploit position and how they bet certain hands. It's no sure-fire method of knowing exactly what they have, but after a while you can start categorizing players into certain archetypes which you use when decision-making.
Comment posted on January 7th, 2005 at 09:09 PM
uh...

pocket kings.. flopping a set with a rainbow flop.

get the other guy all in to have him turn over pocket 5's.. or the next time pocket jacks.

runner runner 5, 5
(other time runner runner j, j)

yeah.. i'll say it now.. kings are cursed. worse than jacks =P